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Forums > SSP Forums > Tips & Tricks

Video Lag

Last Post 21 Dec 2005 09:56 AM by Lee Menningen. 29 Replies.

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Allen Moore User is Offline

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21 Nov 2005 01:22 PM
I worked at a conference this summer and used my Sony HC-1000 digital video camera with song show plus. I used firewire in on my laptop that has well enough power to suppor that type of work. But I still have lag between real time and the video. The video on screen is not cued with real time. What do I do?

Joel Osborn User is Offline

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21 Nov 2005 02:38 PM
As I understand it, there will always be some lag. Fire wire and PCs just aren't fast enough. I believe that if you really want to do an IMAG implementation, you will need some sort of video mixer to do that, instead, using chroma keying and lower thirds and all that kinda good stuff. Hopefully a real expert will chime in here. I don't even play an expert on TV.

...Joel Milton Seventh Day Baptist Church ______ "I'm working on my 5 year plan. I just need to pick a font." - Chuck

David Rencher User is Offline

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21 Nov 2005 03:25 PM
Osborn is right. Anytime you run a live video device through a PC you'll get some sort of lag. This is because the video feed is software processed instead of hardware processed. IMAG devices (video switchers etc) process the video feed through hardware. They can do this because they're a high end dedicated device that doesn't do anything else. Because computer hardware is sort of a "all in one" kind of approach they lack the dedicated hardware.

David

Alton Sullivent User is Offline

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22 Nov 2005 06:25 AM
So can a imag device be configured to work with SSP? I'm new to SSP, but I'm thinking it would probably just mix the video out of the computer with video out of the camera and mix them in the imag device. If you were using that then I guess you would only use text from SSP? Am I even close? Thanks, Alton

Allen Moore User is Offline

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22 Nov 2005 08:54 AM
I have the same question as Alton. What type of equipment is used in an imag system? And how does it work. Can SSP overlay text over the video from my camera?

Joel Osborn User is Offline

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22 Nov 2005 09:24 AM
Keep in mind that I have very limited third hand knowledge, but this is what I've heard. You can use some sort of video mixer to combine the output of the SSP computer with the camera(s). You need to set a solid background for SSP and then, with the mixer (I think that's the device), you "chroma key" that color out, so just the words appear and the background goes away, showing the live video behind it. You may want to do some searches and perhaps ask the question over at http://www.churchmedia.net Like this thread for instance: http://www.churchmedia.net/community/forum/showthread.php?t=6677

...Joel Milton Seventh Day Baptist Church ______ "I'm working on my 5 year plan. I just need to pick a font." - Chuck

Ryan Brien User is Offline

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23 Nov 2005 12:46 AM
We use SSP in an IMAG set up for many of the same features as alot of user do. Text over video is easily accomplished using SSP and a video switcher. Basically you use a DSK (down stream key) with the text as your source and "key" out the background color. You can also use a crop function with the DSK. With a adequately featured switcher you can also do a color key and use transitions to fly in your text using hundreds of transitions. We use a Sony DSF-700, it's a 8 channel switcher w/ 2 SSP machines feeding it graphical content. It also allows for animated lower 3rd titles through SSP as well as basic text over video with no lag. To set up a SSP machine to a video switcher you will need a scan converter to scale the computer resolution to video resolution. Hope this helps

Lee Menningen User is Offline

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23 Nov 2005 05:17 AM
Posted By cwstech on 11/22/2005 8:54 AM ...What type of equipment is used in an imag system? And how does it work. Can SSP overlay text over the video from my camera? We have a Sony camera whose output signal is composite video, fed to the projection computer through a composite-to-firewire converter. We've used it only with SSP. I have used the video as background to a SSP countdown, and as live video (IMAG) using SSP's Live Video pro-module (I wonder whether the old version still works with the beta). There is no apparent lag, it works fine. We don't use it for services (auditorium is too small), only occasionally for special circumstances. Notice we do this limited IMAG without external video equipment. The situation, I suppose, where we would need a switch (mixer) would be to seamlessly switch between several cameras.

Lee

Lee Menningen User is Offline

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29 Nov 2005 09:35 AM
Posted By Lee on 11/23/2005 5:17 AM ...live video (IMAG) using SSP's Live Video pro-module (I wonder whether the old version still works with the beta). I played with the old live video and it still works with the beta.

Lee

Blair Christensen User is Offline

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30 Nov 2005 03:48 AM
Posted By Lee on 11/23/2005 5:17 AM Posted By cwstech on 11/22/2005 8:54 AM ...What type of equipment is used in an imag system? And how does it work. Can SSP overlay text over the video from my camera? We have a Sony camera whose output signal is composite video, fed to the projection computer through a composite-to-firewire converter. We've used it only with SSP. I have used the video as background to a SSP countdown, and as live video (IMAG) using SSP's Live Video pro-module (I wonder whether the old version still works with the beta). There is no apparent lag, it works fine. We don't use it for services (auditorium is too small), only occasionally for special circumstances. Notice we do this limited IMAG without external video equipment. The situation, I suppose, where we would need a switch (mixer) would be to seamlessly switch between several cameras. WOW!!!!!! You must have a pretty Hi-spec computer!!!??? When I have tried it, not only is there lag, but the output video seems to also have a very low frame rate. I can't wait until there is computer hardware (or whatever is needed) out there, so that most computers can display live video to a high enough standard, through programs like SSP. It would make the list of equipment a lot shorter! Besides, at the moment, the only way I know of to MIX between Computer video signals (VGA, XGA, etc.) and video signals (from cameras and the like) at Computer video signal resolution, is with the Sony AWS-G500 which cost a LOT of money.

It's all well and good to have software that can do everything, but how it can do that everything is important as well.

Ryan Brien User is Offline

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30 Nov 2005 10:16 AM
I'm sure it seams easier to just run everything through SSP but to have a professionsal presentation video lag just doesn't work. To spend the money to make your computer faster to try to handle live video better you you could be many steps ahead to a video switcher that would solve the lag problem. Even an inexpensive switcher is better than a lagging image. My .02

Lee Menningen User is Offline

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08 Dec 2005 07:28 AM
Posted By Blairness on 11/30/2005 3:48 AM WOW!!!!!! You must have a pretty Hi-spec computer!!!??? When I have tried it, not only is there lag, but the output video seems to also have a very low frame rate... I doubt we have more than a few frames lag using a standard current computer (DV camcorders likely will impose additional lag and processing requirements). Since you have a frame-rate problem there are likely issues other than computer speed to consider. For instance, if you have a media-capable computer you should be able to display TV on your computer. An ATI All-In-Wonder card claimed 120fps on only a 500MHz computer. Therefore, if your camera can provide the same signal required by the ATI AIW, it seems to me you should be able to get a full 30fps with little difficulty.

Lee

Blair Christensen User is Offline

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09 Dec 2005 03:56 AM
Well, I just had a play with a video camera hooked up to the S-video in on the capture card on my church's media computer. I was actually quite impressed with it. There was only a few frames lag, much better than when I used firewire. It wasn't too jerky either. I suspect if you have different refresh rates on the projector and the input video signal, there will be problems. The trouble is, because I live in a PAL country (50Hz), I cannot seem to match the projector and input video signal refresh rates (projector can't seem to do 50Hz).

It's all well and good to have software that can do everything, but how it can do that everything is important as well.

Lee Menningen User is Offline

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16 Dec 2005 02:28 PM
At the risk of "beating a dead horse", I did some simple arithmetic regarding the so-called IMAG "lag" problem. The problem can certainly be real under some circumstances but may not be something so certain or severe as to dread and avoid entirely. The arithmetic is rather simple. Sound propagates at roughly 1130 feet/second (off-shore people will have to do their own conversion to meters) and video is at 30 frames/second (again, PAL is different, as is film). That gives you 33 milliseconds per NTSC frame and 37 plus feet per frame. During IMAG projection time, assume the audio is live and your system incurs 1 frame of video processing lag. That would mean that viewers 37 feet from the screen will see the video perfectly in sync with the audio - while those sitting at a computer monitor (0 feet) will have a 1 frame lag. Those sitting 75 feet back will encounter a 1 frame audio lag behind the video (because it takes two frames of video for the audio to get there), which actually is almost unnoticeable. For other frames of lag and other distances from the screen, just perform your own arithmetic. Did I do this right?

Lee

David Rencher User is Offline

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16 Dec 2005 04:53 PM
Posted By Lee on 12/16/2005 2:28 PM At the risk of "beating a dead horse", I did some simple arithmetic regarding the so-called IMAG "lag" problem. The problem can certainly be real under some circumstances but may not be something so certain or severe as to dread and avoid entirely. The arithmetic is rather simple. Sound propagates at roughly 1130 feet/second (off-shore people will have to do their own conversion to meters) and video is at 30 frames/second (again, PAL is different, as is film). That gives you 33 milliseconds per NTSC frame and 37 plus feet per frame. During IMAG projection time, assume the audio is live and your system incurs 1 frame of video processing lag. That would mean that viewers 37 feet from the screen will see the video perfectly in sync with the audio - while those sitting at a computer monitor (0 feet) will have a 1 frame lag. Those sitting 75 feet back will encounter a 1 frame audio lag behind the video (because it takes two frames of video for the audio to get there), which actually is almost unnoticeable. For other frames of lag and other distances from the screen, just perform your own arithmetic. Did I do this right? I'm not going to argue the math because I don't know, but it seems that you forgot to account for sound ammplification systems like microphones and speakers. The church I grew up in had speakers every 20 feet or so which means that I was never more than a few feet from my relative source of sound. Besides, I doubt most people would really notice a 33 millisecond delay.

David

Doug Reece User is Offline

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17 Dec 2005 12:00 AM
BTW, our church has an FSR Compass switcher, a $5000 piece of equipment -- and guess what -- it has a video lag as well -- certainly as much as the computer has.

Rod Luhrs

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17 Dec 2005 12:40 AM
Alot of the newer switching equipment that scales scans etc. all have various amounts of lag. especially when they start plugging this one into that one for various distribution. I have been involved in Large Gig's where the FOH sound has been delayed to allow for the "imag" Lag.. I guess it all comes back to processing.. Rod

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Blair Christensen User is Offline

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17 Dec 2005 12:40 AM
Remind me never to buy one of them then!

It's all well and good to have software that can do everything, but how it can do that everything is important as well.

Blair Christensen User is Offline

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17 Dec 2005 12:50 AM
Genlock will fix some of your hardware lag issues (if you have no budget!)

It's all well and good to have software that can do everything, but how it can do that everything is important as well.

Blair Christensen User is Offline

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17 Dec 2005 12:51 AM
Sorry, way off topic there.

It's all well and good to have software that can do everything, but how it can do that everything is important as well.

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Forums > SSP Forums > Tips & Tricks

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17 Mar 2010 10:27 PM
RE: How to Revert from Beta to Official Release by CFC in User Support - V7

Posted By Gary Presley on 31 Jan 2010 03:26 PM

You should be able to just re-install the 10/21/2009 version by using that complete executable. The program will tell you that you have a new version installed, but you can still install the older version.

Could you please elaborate on this? Where is this complete executable is located?

17 Mar 2010 09:08 PM
RE: March 2010 Edition Available for Beta Testing by Cleber Caldas in Latest News

I had the very same problem while I was trying out the December Version with the Windows 7. After some "trial and error" process, I found out the problem is related to the "Cinematic FX" collection.

Try to uninstall and reinstall it without the Cinematic FX option (unselect it when reinstalling SSP). It worked fine for me. Good luck.

Cleber

17 Mar 2010 10:00 AM
March 2010 Beta - How to use Color Improv link is missing by George in SongShow Plus Beta Release Articles

Color Improv is included as part of the new Improv Collection and it appears in the Plug-ins panel that is typically at the bottom of the SSP Control Panel. This tab is supposed to have a "How to use this plug-in" link similar to the Background Improv with basic instructions. This omission was an oversight and it will be added later.

The Color Improv is an advanced effect that allows on the fly hue adjustment and can be applied from the advanced effects tab in the display properties anywhere it is present.

One thing to keep in mind when using this is that Color Improv is a Hue adjustment and not a color filter so when applying this the result may be very subtle depending on what the original color or colors are.

This is pretty cool so have fun with it!

16 Mar 2010 09:51 PM
RE: Computer Setups by fbcgoshen in The 'Wave Pool'

built
Asus rampage MB
Intel Pentium dual core 2.6ghz
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130gig Maxtor system drive
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EVGA Nvidia 8800gt 1gig ram and 8800gts 640mb ram
17 wide screen for windows 22in wide screen for Work window 17in standard to match projectors
2 Mistsubishi Projectors
2 Kramer Scaler switches and Distribution Amplifier

16 Mar 2010 04:30 PM
March 2010 Edition Beta Available Now - Please Read before posting by George in Beta Test Support

The March 2010 Edition of SSP is now in beta testing and is available to current subscribers.

You can download the beta test installation from within SSP using the menu command Update > Check for Beta Version Updates or by going to http://www.songshowplus.com then to the Download page.

Read What's New for a more complete list of new features and enhancements.

We encourage and appreciate users posting to the Beta Forum regarding possible bugs and comments. When posting bugs or comments to the Beta Forum, please make a separate post for each possible bug to make it easier to maintain continuity when discussing bugs in the forum.

If additional information is needed or a remote session is desired, a representative may contact you directly regarding a possible bug you have submitted.

Please review the recent postings in this Beta Forum to see if there is already a thread on your issue and the Beta Knowledge Base area to see if it has already been addressed.

16 Mar 2010 04:25 PM
RE: Unstable for me by iamgap in Beta Test Support

I haven't yet updated to the latest release. Was this resolved? If not, it just happened again on the 2/24 beta.

It hung when switching from one song to another. One had the clouds animation with an image overlay @ 25% transparency and 100% size. The next had a Shift Worship MPG file (praise in cliff).

In order to get it to pop an Alert!, I clicked the SSP task (on the Windows Task Bar) three seperate times. The second reported Not Responding, the third popped the Alert!.

3432 - Hint: Ssp: Unable to use fill type: Video File. Reason: Unable to use video file due to it's slow response time

I have a pretty long trace file if you would like it. The video file is in the SSP Video directory, on the local HDD.

EDIT: I edited the file type from WMV to MPG, as I realized it was one of the few MPG types we still had. I also downloaded the WMV version, and used that after restarting SSP, without issue.

15 Mar 2010 04:12 PM
RE: Recommended Professional Level Video Cards (DI009) by George in Display Issues

*******ALERT*******

There has been a reported fan speed issue related to the NVIDIA 196.75 video driver. Consumers are reporting low video card fan speeds, overheating and hardware failure.

LINK TO NVIDIA DRIVER NOTIFICATION

This particular driver is not one that was recommended by the SSP Team, however there may be cause for concern if you recently updated your video drivers.

NVIDIA has removed the 196.75 driver version from the download area but it is worth checking your system to ensure you do not have it installed. If you have this driver installed the recommendation is to uninstall it immediately and install an older driver.

14 Mar 2010 03:41 PM
RE: some avi's kill SSP by Rick Everingham in User Support - V7

I have seen this to some extent, however once I installed the K-lite code pack, this issue seems to have gone away, as it is pretty inclusive in containing all the codecs.

13 Mar 2010 10:22 PM
RE: LogMeIn.com by fbcgoshen in Tips & Tricks

I use logmein every week to set up my program. As a matter of fact i just got done setting up the service for tomorrow using this. It comes in really handy if you are unable to attend a service and they are having issues. I have corrected monitor settings and what not from my office or lazyboy.

The other thing is we have a digital mackie mixer hooked to a different pc. I am able to run the board from home. I am able to work on the live audio feed from home since you don't always know what is going on with the feed at the church. I can also help other sound techs when they have issues.

I would highly recommend it to anyone. It is free unless you want the advanced features. It is also a good way to keep office computers going.

12 Mar 2010 11:11 AM
RE: Does December 2009 Edition Support Unicode? by dreece in User Support - V7

We understand the need for this, and work continues under the hood torward that goal. We will be sure to make it well known once this capability is supported.

12 Mar 2010 09:49 AM
RE: Bug in 2/26/10 build by akins in User Support - V7

I might add to what George said by directing you to "presets" for songs and other items. We use somewhat similar formats for songs and scriptures each Sunday and I have "preset" these for quick application. I then can make modifications as desired for a particular Sunday.

12 Mar 2010 09:44 AM
RE: How to use ssptimer files by akins in User Support - V7

Just select the type you want (5 min, etc.) from the list and place it in the program. You can then edit the timer changing font, size, color (just two), placement, and two lines of text. Actually, the editing choices are fairly limited and have been the subject of wishes for sometime, but you can usually play around and get a decent look. Right clicking on the timer in the program and selecting "display properties" at the top of the list will allow you to add background color, images, and/or videos and you can apply "advance effects" to any of these.

11 Mar 2010 11:18 AM
Right-Click copy/paste menu does not work in PPT song import panel (TS098) by George in Troubleshooting

Symptom:
During a Song import from PPT the right-click menu is no longer available in the Slide Text box when importing song text from a PPT. This may cause difficulty in editing content. Import is still possible and text entry and deletion are possible, only the right click menu is affected.

Possible Cause:
Unknown - the root cause of this is still under investigation.

Possible Solution:
Import is still possible and text entry and deletion are possible. The CTRL-X, CTRL-C and CTRL-V keyboard shortcuts work as well. If a significant change in the arrangement of the text in the PowerPoint file is needed, this can be done using Microsoft PowerPoint.

(TS098)

10 Mar 2010 05:37 PM
December 2009 Edition - Bug Fixes (SSP070) by George in SongShow Plus Issues

There are some previously reported bugs that have been fixed in the December 2009 Edition:

Drag and drop in Win XP was broken and fixed in the Beta cycle.
Quick Message was broken and fixed in the Beta cycle.
Live Video was broken and fixed in the Beta cycle. This fix was an improvement of the previous patch that was required to use the Live Video Plug-in.
An issue with nvidia driver version 196.21 that broke the SSP Beta on XP was corrected.
Print Slideshow and song list selection spinners grayed out
Builder re-run error causing file browser to open unexpectedly.
H.264 issue with playback of .m4v, .mp4v, and .mpg4 video corrected.
Path displayed incomplete when adding sub-folders to panels.
Snowflake Wipe transition not working as expected.
Font selection when editing text in the Slide Show Builder not working as expected.
Background Improv folder navigation and state save corrected.
Monitor options placements selector not working as expected.
CTRL-V does not paste copied objects as expected in Slide Show Builder.

(SSP070)

10 Mar 2010 03:05 PM
H.264 videos or thumbnails may cause SSP to be unstable and lock up (TS097) by George in Troubleshooting

Symptom:
H.264 Video or thumbnails may cause SSP to be unstable and lock up when added or viewed.

Possible Cause:
It appears that there are some H.264 video that can cause trouble in SSP. At this time this is very rare, however, the root cause of this is still under investigation.

Possible Solution:
This was discovered using movie trailer files that would play fine in applications other than SSP. At this time there is no solution but it is best to try a different file to make sure it is not a wider issue. Please contact the Support Team and provide the video file for analysis.

(TS097)

10 Mar 2010 11:56 AM
RE: Audio clip doesn't restart when slide show restarts by George in User Support - V7

Hmm - Interesting...

I just tried this using blank slides entered as program elements and got the same expected behavior I described before. Are you using "blank" blank slides (default blank slide is black color only) or do you have something else set for your blank slides?

I would say at this point if the behavior persists and you can duplicated it, contact the support team so they can do a remote with you and actually see what is going on.

09 Mar 2010 05:59 PM
RE: SSP Version 5.5 with SongSelect Online by iamgap in User Support - V5.5

I too would recommed that you backup/archive/zip your current R-Technics folder and install the evaluation of version seven. If the PC cannot handle it, which I doubt, do a complete uninstall of Version 7 and go back to version 5.5.

It is my understanding that version 7 is much more stable, and can function more efficiently on an older machine than version 5.5 can.

09 Mar 2010 05:52 PM
RE: 32bit vs. 64bit by iamgap in User Support - V7 on Windows 7

To add yet another fly into the ointment...

I didn't realize that my MoBo has a 4 year old (2 yr older than the mobo) chip on it (intel 945). So even though the processor and motherboard can support up to 4 GB of RAM, the chipset can only address 3.2 GB of RAM.

What I am most upset about is that the board advertised that it could support up to 4 GB of RAM, but didn't say it could only address 3.2. Had I known that, I wouldn't have bought this board. Time for an upgrade. Now I gotta find a board that supports the RAM that I just bought for this board.

09 Mar 2010 10:47 AM
Video file types supported in Video Chain (MI016) by George in Media Issues

The video file extensions that are supported in SongShow Plus^TM for the Video Chain tool are a subset of the video file extensions that are supported in SSP globally.

Keep in mind the required codec/filter still needs to be available on the system for proper playback of these file formats.

Video Clip (*.avi)
Video (*.mpg4)
Video (*.mp4)
Video (*.m4v)
Video (*.mp4v)
Video (*.mov)
Movie Clip (*.mpg)
Movie Clip (*.mpeg)
Movie Clip (*.mpe)
Movie Clip (*.m1v)
Windows Media Audio/Video File (*.wmv)

If some of the listed types do not appear in the Video Chain panel, review the instructions for selecting visible video types in the KB article MI010.

(MI016)

09 Mar 2010 08:11 AM
RE: SSP loses audio when run with PowerDVD by norvilles in User Support - V7

Ah. Never would have thought that those two things would go hand in hand.

SSP News

17 Mar 2010 09:08 PM
RE: March 2010 Edition Available for Beta Testing by Cleber Caldas in Latest News

I had the very same problem while I was trying out the December Version with the Windows 7. After some "trial and error" process, I found out the problem is related to the "Cinematic FX" collection.

Try to uninstall and reinstall it without the Cinematic FX option (unselect it when reinstalling SSP). It worked fine for me. Good luck.

Cleber

09 Mar 2010 07:30 AM
RE: Cinematic Effects Collection: Easter Special from GoFishMedia by osborn4 in Latest News

And if you have multiple projection licenses, one purchase covers all of them.

03 Mar 2010 12:10 PM
RE: December 2009 Edition Released by norvilles in Latest News

No problem.

Also I tested on Windows 7 64bit and Windows XP 64bit.

05 Feb 2010 08:13 PM
December 2009 Edition, 2/4/2010 Candidate Release by dreece in Latest News

The 2/4/2010 candidate test release of the December 2009 Edition of SongShow Plus is now available to current subscribers.

XP/nVidia driver problem is resolve.
Single core use is now the default. Users can still switch to multi-core mode.

Read What's New for a more complete list of new features and enhancements. Subscribers can also visit the Beta Test Support forum to post feedback and questions regarding the beta version.

You can download the beta test installation from within SongShow Plus using the menu command Update > Check for Beta Version Updates or by going to http://www.songshowplus.com then to the Download page.

29 Jan 2010 03:40 PM
December 2009 Edition, 1/28/2010 Candidate Release by dreece in Latest News

The 1/28/2010 candidate test release of the December 2009 Edition of SongShow Plus is now available to current subscribers.

Various bug fixes.

Read What's New for a more complete list of new features and enhancements. Subscribers can also visit the Beta Test Support forum to post feedback and questions regarding the beta version.

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